Kaffelogic community

Raost & New Different Versions

Hey everyone! Big profile drop. Following the same general ideas from the last versions of the Raost profile, namely: (1) steadily declining RoR (2) constant power and fan speed at FC, (3) slightly higher than recommended min desired rate of rise, and (4) negative boost between 12-16% DTR; I've come to these different versions:

Raost v4:
~7 min, 29.9% DTR at 1.7 (219.9ºC)
Slightly smoother RoR than v3
Great as a benchmark and for modern espresso and filter.
Do not go over 1.9, as the roaster won't stop at a predictable time.
Fast Raost v2
~5:30, 27,5% DTR at 1.7 (219.9ºC)
Higher RoR curve at the end, to avoid stalling.
Great for filter, cupping or nordic style espresso.
Slow Raost v2
~8:20, 26,1% DTR at 1.7 (219.9ºC)
Smoother and higher RoR at the end.
Great for more traditional espresso and more developed filter, as well as for more delicate naturals.
Light Raost
~8 min, 17,2% DTR at 1.7 (219.9ºC)
Lower DTR than regular Raost, for brighter acidity.
Mini Raost
~6:45, 24,8% DTR at 1.7 (219.9ºC)
Designed for smaller batches, between 50-60 grams.
Good development, and useful for more expensive coffee.
D-Raost
~9:50, 13,9% DTR at 1.7 (219.9ºC)
Based on Damian's D-Roast, but applying some concepts from Raost.
***EDIT: works better for higher voltage! See next posts for v2, suited for lower voltages (220-230V)***
Lower RoR at the start and steady decline throughout the profile; same fan profile than original D-Roast.

(Could't upload these in the last post)

@benjaminfleon: Your "D-Raost" is very interesting indeed!
I have a couple of questions about the profile.

What is the energy demand of your profiles? Are you on 240V? With some profiles presented here (D-roast is an example and some of @Steves profiles) does only work on 240V. We that have 230V and 220V are left out and must modify the profiles.

You say that you name your profile after Scott Rao and you refer to his book "Coffe Roasting: Best Practices". I do only have his former book "The Coffee Roasters Companion" but I may get the book you mention. In the book I have he mentions that a DTR between 20-25% is to strive for as he had noticed that gave the best taste among the roasts that he had tasted. Your profiles are either below or in most cases above that range. Doesn't Scott Rao put any importance to this development range any more?

Your end temperature 219,9 deg C is rather low and I think means a roast on the light side. Are the beans evenly developed? If you cut a bean does it have an even color inside?

I've had my Kaffelogic for about a year. I have tried many profiles but for now I mostly use the altitude Core Profiles and then mainly the "Rest" variant. My "L" stays often around 3.0 or sometimes a little lower and gives me Medium/Medium Light roast and in the 20-25% DTR range. I roast 3-4 batches at a time as they keep well and often tastes best after a weeks rest. I use the coffe both for lighter espresso and for pour over depending on the bean and how it had been treated (dry or washed preparation for example). I'm rather satisfied with the results and it's uncomplicated.

I want to try your profiles though as they are interesting. The Sidamo bean you used was it fully washed or dry processed ("natural")? I have a Sidamo Gr2 that is fully washed but I do also have other Ethiopian beans that are dry processed.

Besides the Scott Rao book is not easy to find but I found an ex that I've just ordered.

Hey @nrdlnd !

Thanks for your post, I was about to post about that! Regarding the D-Raost profile, I actually just tried it and came across the same problem some people were having with the original D-Roast (i.e: not enough power, and having to adjust the fan speed to avoid a stall). I had only tried it before with a super fermenty anaerobic processed coffee that took heat incredibly fast, so I didn't notice the issue.

My usual voltage is in the 218-225 range, so I adjusted the profile to work better for that scenario. I'd recommend going with the first version for higher voltage. Here's v2:


Here's a comparison of both versions. 80 gram batches of the same coffee (washed ethiopian between 1800-2000 masl), V2 over V1 (225-226 voltage).


V2 isn't perfect, but I think it's a better starting point for those who have lower voltages. For this case, I'd either lower the preheat power for the 80 gram batch, or roast larger batches; as well as apply a couple of short boosts. In any case, every coffee will be slightly different, so with a few tweaks I think you can get it in really good shape.

nrdlnd wrote: ↑Tue 06 Jul, 2021 12:55 am
You say that you name your profile after Scott Rao and you refer to his book "Coffe Roasting: Best Practices". I do only have his former book "The Coffee Roasters Companion" but I may get the book you mention. In the book I have he mentions that a DTR between 20-25% is to strive for as he had noticed that gave the best taste among the roasts that he had tasted. Your profiles are either below or in most cases above that range. Doesn't Scott Rao put any importance to this development range any more?

I understand that Scott Rao recommended 20-25% as a rule of thumb for most roasters, and not really thinking about specialty coffee. He's posted and said a few times recently that he does not recommend to give DTR a huge importance as an indicator of when to drop a batch (or end a roast in our case), and puts a lot more importance a steady decline in RoR, on end temperature and color. Instead, we should take DTR as an indicator of "a balanced curve".

I've found that I've gotten more sweetness in the 27-30% range at the speeds and temperatures I often roast, so I go with that instead.

nrdlnd wrote: ↑Tue 06 Jul, 2021 12:55 am
Your end temperature 219,9 deg C is rather low and I think means a roast on the light side. Are the beans evenly developed? If you cut a bean does it have an even color inside?

About the end temp, 219.9ºC is usually my lowest end temp (unless, again, I'm roasting something super heavy on the processing, which I roast as low at up to 214). Uneven development at those temperatures hasn't really been an issue for me. I don't cut the beans as often as I maybe should, but when I have it's been a pretty even color. Without a color meter I couldn't say whats my variance between inside and surface for sure, though. (Also, it's often hard to talk about what's "lighter" or "darker" without also talking about extraction yields)

The Sidamo profile was used for a fully washed process; but given what you've said, I think I'd recommend you try the Slow Raost profile first. It's pretty good compromise between texture and flavor balance.

My usual voltage is in the 218-225 range, so I adjusted the profile to work better for that scenario. I'd recommend going with the first version for higher voltage.

Good! My voltage is around 229-230V so I will have power enough for your profiles.

I will try your version v3 then with my Washed Sidamo and compare it with one of the core profiles (2000-2700m Rest) and maybe also Shapeshifter and try to stop at a similar DTR.

As I wrote I've become lazy and mostly use the core profiles choosing my profile depedent on where the bean comes from (altitude/density). I have tried many profiles and I've had good results with the Classic (not to forget!), Ninja Turtle, Shapeshifter (for high altitude hard beans). Steady and Dark II has been a favorite for less dense beans such as Monsooned Malabar and low altitude Brazilian beans in a blend with Monsooned Robusta and also some brighter bean in the blend. This is for more classic espresso.

Your profiles differs from them and I want to compare. I'm trying to master lighter roasts so this will be interesting!

benjaminfleon wrote: ↑Tue 06 Jul, 2021 2:31 am I understand that Scott Rao recommended 20-25% as a rule of thumb for most roasters, and not really thinking about specialty coffee. He's posted and said a few times recently that he does not recommend to give DTR a huge importance as an indicator of when to drop a batch (or end a roast in our case), and puts a lot more importance a steady decline in RoR, on end temperature and color. Instead, we should take DTR as an indicator of "a balanced curve".

Hi

Its good you mentioned this, as I was always chasing a DTR between 20% and 25%, and further to what you have mentioned here is the blurb from Scott Rao:

He has said, and I quote him "Never drop a batch based on DTR!" further on in the post he goes on to say, "As the guy who invented DTR, I'm begging roasters, please do not drop batches based on DTR. Roast color should be THE determinant of when to drop a batch. Bean temperature can be a useful proxy for color, but only if your final ET is very consistent each batch." Further on he mentions "DTR can be useful for analyzing the balance of a roast profile." And lastly he mentioned "DTR is not a great indicator of roast level...for example, you may reach 20% DTR early in first crack, or you may reach at at the very end of first crack. For my colleagues who think "20%DTR is dark," please realize that my 20%DTR may be lighter than your 16%DTR."

Cheers
G

Just sharing some results...

First, going back to the original Raost (with my boost of fan in the first 30 sec to get going).
This has given me solid results so far with a variety of beans, both for aeropress and espresso for flat whites.

I did a cupping comparison today of Costa Rica Hacienda Pilas (specialty coffee) with 4 different profiles: Raost, Firestarter, 1200+ Rest, and Shapeshifter. It's MASL is 1000-1200. Washed.

Here's the log: To be honest, all the profiles tasted pretty good and not wildly different. I would say that Raost and Firestarter were my favourite. And Raost probably had the most obvious juicy fruit hit up front. Although the aftertaste didn't linger as long as the other roasts, which were all slower profiles.

i've also enjoyed Raost with Ethiopian Yirg, PNG Kimil, Peru Kontiki, Australian Dimbulah and Kenya AA. Sometimes there's a bit of kick during post FC (for example the Costa Rica above), but doesn't seem to affect taste badly (as far as I can tell!).

Here's my results from some of your latest round of updates Benjamin. I roasted Slow Raost v2, Raost v4 and Light Raost, and also for comparison the Raost that I've been using.
I haven't tasted these yet, so will have to report back, but just for visuals...

First bean was Dominican Republic Cibao Honey Process.
One issue with this bean is that it seems to enter FC later than most beans (like 214-216). I'm guessing I should probably be modifying profiles to work around a higher FC temp?

Second bean was Ethiopian Yirgacheffe. This bean was the opposite - started hearing isolated cracks around 197deg, and proper FC was definitely underway by 203.

From visuals alone, it doesn't look like the newer versions have done a better job, but will see how they cup!

One question I have is that the charge temp seems a little low, especially with the Light Raost and Slow Raost. What's your thinking in lowering the charge temp so much?

@benjaminfleon:

I understand that Scott Rao recommended 20-25% as a rule of thumb for most roasters, and not really thinking about specialty coffee. He's posted and said a few times recently that he does not recommend to give DTR a huge importance as an indicator of when to drop a batch (or end a roast in our case), and puts a lot more importance a steady decline in RoR, on end temperature and color. Instead, we should take DTR as an indicator of "a balanced curve".

This is very interesting! In the Kaffelogic profiles seems "L" to be very much coupled to end temperature (medium L=3.0 often 226 deg C end temperature). I still want a lighter roast to be well developed and maybe DTR can be to a help in that case. I haven't tried the Raost profiles yet but I will when it's time for next roasting session.

Besides I'm now enjoying two beans both single and as blends roasted with the core profiles with a DTR around 23%. They are medium roasts. After a weeks rest they are at their best!